I was advised to get a shoulder rest by my fiddle teacher and also by most fiddle players that I know.
I was told that the make KUN make good affordable rests that last.
Does any fiddle players out there have any advice on shoulder rests?? or even better have any advice on Kun shoulder rests!!
Here is a link to the different KUN shoulder rests which ones the best and why??
Kuhn is a very good rest, but I must say after years messing with them, in the end I quit because good posture and relaxed but solidly holding the Violin body without help is a better way.
Some things that may impede good posture are, the Violin is a bad fit for your body. You are really lazy and don't like discipline. ( me ) Also do you feel really tense when you are working on your playing? ( also me sometimes if I don't take time to work into playing )
Use a shoulder rest if you need it, don't if you don't.
The point of a shoulder rest is to fit the fiddle to your body. It's a good idea to try some out before buying to make sure that the one you buy will fit you, though most are very adjustable.
The ones you linked to are pretty standard. There are other kinds, if you look at the ones at http://www.sharmusic.com/ they have a pretty wide selection.
It's not possible to tell you if you should use one or which one to use without seeing you hold and play the fiddle. It's a matter of fitting the fiddle to your body, so it depends on your anatomy and how you hold and play the fiddle.
heya i have been playing with a wolf shoulder rest for the last ten years and it is still going, they are really comfortable and IMHO are the only shoulder rest i will ever use. They are a holland made product, so have a look out for it. I play a fair bit in sessions, and at home and never have been unhappy with it.
actually here is a site that shows the one I am talking about: http://www.swstrings.com/Store/Shopping.jspCategory=Accessories&SubCategory=Violin&Group=146
Good luck!
I use a shoulder rest because I have a long neck, so for those rare times I actually need to hold the fiddle with my jaw (shifting positions), a shoulder rest is the only way to fill the ample space between my jaw and collarbone.
But a shoulder rest does two other things--it provides some traction for the fiddle against your shirt, and it shifts the balance of the fiddle toward the tailpiece end, both of which make it easier (for me at least) to keep the fiddle loosely perched on my collarbone.
Not everyone needs or likes a shoulder rest (or chin rest). Try different types out and see if they help, and, if so, which one feels best.
FWIW, I use a Kuhn Bravo--maple body. I just like the heft and look of the wood. I've tried Wolf, Bon Musica, Comfort, Resonans, Mach One, and Play on Air. Kuhn works best for me. YMMV.
it is an interesting thing how people think purists are not to be look at for advice.... makes you wonder! just as you are entitled to dabble and make judgements about music, purists also have that entitlement and one can always learn from them aswell! Oh by the way steel strings are just as good as other strings....just depends on the sound you are after!
Kuhn is the best I've come across, and they're fairly cheap too. I like the plain plastic adjustable fold-able ones better than the fancy wood ones myself, but people differ on opinion. It's lasted me since I got my first violin, though I'll have to replace the rubber tubing on the foot sometime soon, so the metal doesn't scratch...
I have used them on and of over the years, I can see why people use them and sometimes I use one when tired, for most of the time the rest sits in the case ....unused. Get your teacher to loan you a few to try before you buy.
My Luthier fitted me with a Wolf, only because he couldn't find another that would be shallow enough to suit my need. I find it very comfortable and would miss it immense.ly if I didn't have it. However, to each his own.
Just got one for the first time in my life and I got the Kun Collapsable. I absolutely love it...though as I've said I've never used one before.
When I was a kid I had a litte shoulder pad but stopped using it a long time ago. Recently I haven't been able to relax my shoulder and it was bothering my playing. I was starting to get some pain in my shoulder and left arm, to be honest. It's gone now. I feel like a new fiddler. Get one and be happy. Apparently I'm so old that I need one AND I don't care what anyone thinks.
I'm in the Wolf camp because I have a long neck, I prefer playing with a shoulder rest (not to mention the fact that my teacher insists on it). I've also tried the Kun (which I liked, and which was the sturdiest, but not quite tall enough), and the Resonans. It really is a matter of personal preferance. I've noticed the Wolf has a tendency to pop off, the Kun didn't. Good advice to try several if you can.
i found that the wolf poped off as well, so i took the feet off the kun sholder rest and screwed them into the wolf threaded barrel...which has worked brilliantly!
Look out for the Bonmusica ones too - they're totally adjustable as they are bendy and you can fit them exactly to the right shape. They look a bit like a Simpsons-esque "British dentistry" sort of contraption, but once it's fitted to the fiddle it's pretty discreet. They're worth a try.
it is an interesting thing how people think that the purist way is the only way and it is the only way because it is the purist way
perhaps the "purist" got the way they did because they were not armed with better information that really could have helped them, due to either geographical situation or economic situation...
Joshua Bell plays the most pure type of traditional music. Even though I am not fond of his non traditional and non purist deep knee bends and body contortions.
I've tried practically every shoulder rest on the market and have been dissapointed in all of them but last year I bought a Comford Violin Shoulder Cradle and all I can say is -- finally, something that works. They're not adjustable but they do come in three sizes. I'm not sure if it's because the Comford is so comfortable or if it's a result of the design but it does seem to improve the sound of my fiddle.
For those who think that £20+ is a lot for a shoulder rest, I recently bought one on e-bay called a FOM, which is essentially a Wolf Secondo clone at less than half the price. On the plus side, it looks and feels pretty much the same, but with a quick release catch for adjustment of the width- easier to use than the screws.
On the minus side, although you can adjust the height, there is no adjuster to angle the pad in relation to the plane of your shoulder. However, this can easily be remedied by a little careful bending of the metal!
Worth a punt at the price- BIN £10.95 inc.p&p.
(And, no, I am not on commission )
I bought one on eBay just recently for under a tenner including postage and this is it: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290173518686
It is roughly the same size and profile as a Kun bravo (which I also have but I wanted a spare). It's much lighter and not as strongly made, but it does the job. The Kun Bravo is very well made (brass and wood) and should last a lifetime but it costs a small fortune. Try out other peoples though, until you find a pattern you like - happy searching and good luck!
as to the Wolfs I am always afraid that the big wire will somehow scrape the back of my violin...I like the Kun regular better than the collapsible...the collapsible seems to have a thinner pad...I like the Playonair, but can never get the darned thing to stay put...if you don't want a rest but want the fiddle to not slip from your shoulder, try a piece of folded up chamois
I use a collapsible Kun shoulder rest since it fits into my case easier. I used to use a Viva one which is alright too I guess just a bit weaker I think? The only problem I have with my Kun one is that it feels too low no matter how high I put it but apart from that its alright
I'm also a fan of the Kun. I have the Hun Original. This is the place I got mine, and they have some of the best prices I've seen so far. http://www.southweststrings.com/
Good luck!
I much prefer my Wolf one to the Kun I used to have. I feel much more relaxed when using it. The only problem with it is that the rubber bits where it attaches to the fiddle wear out quite quickly, but this isn't a big problem.
On mnay makes, those "rubber bits" on the feet that hug the fiddle are just pieces of surgical tubing. You can find that fairly cheap at most pharmacies. And it's easy to cut and fit the bits to recover the feet.
Tombo, you're brilliant! Kun feet on a Wolf Shoulder rest work great Grips like a charm, plenty of height and comfort, played for over an hour this morning and it didn't pop off once. Thanks for the idea.
Clear Drops, watch that the electrical tape doesn't mess up the finish on your fiddle as the tape degrades. Electrical tape has a tendency to go brittle after a while, and then disintegrate. I suspect the adhesive in the tape wouldn't be too healthy for the varnish....
I'll keep an eye on it cpt, every time I pick up a fiddle, but no such problems so far, maybe about six months on. Originally an immediate, you know, search around the house fer what's available kind of fix it thingy that's lasted beyond expectations.
Don’t get forced into using a shoulder-rest! I do not use a shoulder-rest and have never had any problems. I do have a good comfortable chin-rest and I hold the fiddle in a fairly conventional manner between the jaw and collarbone.
There is no consensus on the use of shoulder rests. I know that many fiddle teachers (in Ireland at least) insist that everyone should use a shoulder rest, but it’s far from obvious that it’s always a good idea. They say that you’ll get terrible neck-pain without one. And they claim that shoulder-rest use is almost universal among Classical performer. (These things are untrue.) While many contemporary fiddlers do use a shoulder-rest, many do not. Alasdair Fraser, Aly Bain, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, (to name a very few), as well as most older players, play without shoulder-rests. And of course the great classical violinist Yehudi Menuhin and the magnificent jazz violinist Stéphane Grappelli, never used shoulder-rests.
The shoulder impedes the movement of the left hand, especially on the lower strings. As you play the D and G strings your shoulder naturally raises, and the shoulder-rest has the effect of pushing the shoulder down, thus inhibiting movement. Often violinists feel that the instrument should not move at all during playing, and without a shoulder-rest the violin can feel a little unstable. Playing without a shoulder-rest will give greater freedom to the left hand, whereas playing with one will make the instrument feel more stable in the hand but will limit movement. Many American music conservatories have returned to teaching violin without the shoulder-rest.
There is a good deal of debate within the Classical scene on how useful shoulder-rests are. The best thing I find for players with a longish neck is to place a small pad between the collarbone and the violin (not on the shoulder!) This allows the player to have free movement of the left hand while holding the violin comfortably. My advice is to get a good (not too small) comfortable chin-rest, with a reasonable dip to it, that will give the instrument good purchase on the jaw.
Here’s Prof. Monte Belknap’s response to the question “How important is it that a student use a shoulder rest?”
”I believe the disadvantages of using a shoulder rest out-weigh the advantages. The purpose of a shoulder rest is to aid one in holding up the violin. The problem is that we shouldn't be holding the violin up with the shoulder at all. We should hold up the violin by pushing the violin down with our chin, always keeping our back bone straight and then holding up the end of the violin with the left hand. This is the way the violin was held for centuries before the invention of the shoulder rest (in the 1920's-30's I believe). If you took a poll of all of the greatest violinists of all time you would only find a hand full of them that ever used a shoulder rest, even today. The secret is not raising the shoulder. Don't even touch the violin with the shoulder and see how much more easier it becomes to shift and how much faster the fingers can move. It is not easy to learn how to do this. It took me years to learn...I'm still learning!”
Lots of people of course find using a shoulder-rest to be useful. And it can seem like instant good posture for some (especially if they’re used to playing in cramped pub conditions). (Though many session players who use shoulder-rests still have horrible posture!) My point is that there is no consensus, and that there can be serious disadvantages to using a shoulder-rest. So don’t feel obliged to use one just because your teacher insists. First try a good chin-rest, and learn to have a relaxed posture.
I have a somewhat small chin, a slightly long neck and kinda low shoulders. Added together, this means I can’t seem to get by without a shoulder rest. Periodically I try, mainly because the estimable Mr. Lazyhound and others here highly recommend it, and I have made some progress in overcoming the feeling of losing control. But I don’t see how I would ever play without my chin on the fiddle, and I simply cannot do that without a shoulder rest. Or a very tall chin rest, for which I have been searching and which I just might carve for myself.
The tall chin rest has considerable appeal because it would let me lower my bowing arm a bit and reduce that tension.
“The problem is that we shouldn't be holding the violin up with the shoulder at all. We should hold up the violin by pushing the violin down with our chin,...”
So the idea is to hold it between the chin and the collarbone? I imagine that some collarbones will fit , and support, a fiddle better than others. When I try to rest the fiddle on my collarbone, I feel some pressure on the carotid artery. Probably not a good thing.
Every theoretical argument about it eventually comes up against anatomy. Some people are probably better off without a shoulder rest and some are probably better off with it. And the fact that so many people played without shoulder rests before they were invented is not relevant, because we have no way of knowing how many potential players were turned away, gave up or never reached their potential because of not having a shoulder rest.
Yehudi Menuhin helped to develop the "Menuhin" shoulder rest. It did not stand the test of time, but it was similar to a Bon Musica. He also used a pad under the jacket before his rest expirement, so he is not a good protagonist for the no-redt mvement.
often thought the problem is not with or without a rest..if you can do without, fine then do so, but DO NOT raise the left shoulder to compensate for no rest. Again I will state, do not raise the left shoulder scrunching it up towards your ear. It is true about the theory of what Neddiescot is saying. But it also implies that you will have great form and not hunch or scrunch. Yuo will have a lot freer movement of the arm, especially up in 5th position, but we rarely are going there.
>>“The problem is that we shouldn't be holding the violin up with the shoulder at all. We should hold up the violin by pushing the violin down with our chin,...”<<
Shock horror.! this is simply incorrect. there should be no downward pressure which will tense all sorts of muscles we want relaxed! The correct idea is to place the fiddle in position and gently pull the head/chin back so the lip of the chin rest fits under the chin and is held there with no downwards pressure.
I will quote James Winram here on the particular issue of this discussion;
>>It is nonsense to lay down any hard and fast rule. A simple experiment will prove whether a pad and chin rest are necessary or not: stand up perfectly erect and place the violin under the jaw 'without lowering the head'. If there is a space between the collar bone and the back of the violin it must be filled up with a pad.A player with a short neck will probably not need either a chin rest or a pad, whereas a player with a very long neck will require both.<<
Jig wrote:
">>“The problem is that we shouldn't be holding the violin up with the shoulder at all. We should hold up the violin by pushing the violin down with our chin,...”<<
Shock horror.! this is simply incorrect."
(But this is not incorrect!)
"...the lip of the chin rest fits under the chin and is held there with no downwards pressure."
If the instrument is held in place there is obviously some pressure exerted to hold it in place. It's not an enormous amount of pressure, of course. According to Yehudi Menuhin, when we take the left hand away the violin should droop by nearly 45 degrees.
And if there's any pressure or pain in the collar-bone, a small pad should sort that out. In general I would recommend a small pad for someone who felt they needed the fiddle to be elevated, or at worst a shoulder-rest that doesn't raise the instrument to much. There are a lot of fiddlers with giant scaffolding under the fiddle and their postures are still off.
Its not meant to be downwards pressure. Try it, you will find the neck muscles at the back much more relaxed which translates top a more open 'feeling'. There need be no downwards pressure at all. Simply draw the head back. I imagine the older method without a chin rest would need the downwards grip. not sure, although i have played without one I haven't done it much.
Just this discussion reminded me to check my 'grip' as soon as i did i realized i was gripping down. I immediately corrected my self. With regular lessons the teacher can correct you, bad habits can develop in a week of serious practice. lessons twice a week are recommended as a minimum! how many of us get that, certainly not me!
If the chin rest fits you well, trial and error, then just keeping your head in position with a feeling of drawing the head back will keep the fiddle in place.
There is no doubt that the more relaxed and alert we are the smoother and greater control we will be able to exercise over our bodies and our instrument.
It is said by some that the hand shouldnt support the fiddle at all yet its possible to see players like Arthur Grumiaux litterally not touching the fiddle with their chin at points they are so relaxed. mind you he has plenty of 'padding'!
As you say 'According to Yehudi Menuhin, when we take the left hand away the violin should droop by nearly 45 degrees.''
It is simply a question of balance and proportion.
For sure, the pressure comes from tucking in the chin. No argument there! Of course, most of the older fiddlers in my family didn't really use the chin rest at all, the fiddle was held to the shoulder.
Jig said: "I imagine the older method without a chin rest would need the downwards grip."
I reckon not. In authentic Baroque playing the chin never holds the violin at all, the hand and arm carry all the weight, the chin is left out of the equation.
Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Hey everyone
I was advised to get a shoulder rest by my fiddle teacher and also by most fiddle players that I know.
I was told that the make KUN make good affordable rests that last.
Does any fiddle players out there have any advice on shoulder rests?? or even better have any advice on Kun shoulder rests!!
Here is a link to the different KUN shoulder rests which ones the best and why??
http://www.kunrest.com/products-models.html
Do purist tradys look down on them in any way???
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Irish Mandolin
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Kuhn is a very good rest, but I must say after years messing with them, in the end I quit because good posture and relaxed but solidly holding the Violin body without help is a better way.
Some things that may impede good posture are, the Violin is a bad fit for your body. You are really lazy and don't like discipline. ( me ) Also do you feel really tense when you are working on your playing? ( also me sometimes if I don't take time to work into playing )
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Use a shoulder rest if you need it, don't if you don't.
The point of a shoulder rest is to fit the fiddle to your body. It's a good idea to try some out before buying to make sure that the one you buy will fit you, though most are very adjustable.
The ones you linked to are pretty standard. There are other kinds, if you look at the ones at http://www.sharmusic.com/ they have a pretty wide selection.
It's not possible to tell you if you should use one or which one to use without seeing you hold and play the fiddle. It's a matter of fitting the fiddle to your body, so it depends on your anatomy and how you hold and play the fiddle.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
heya i have been playing with a wolf shoulder rest for the last ten years and it is still going, they are really comfortable and IMHO are the only shoulder rest i will ever use. They are a holland made product, so have a look out for it. I play a fair bit in sessions, and at home and never have been unhappy with it.
actually here is a site that shows the one I am talking about:
http://www.swstrings.com/Store/Shopping.jspCategory=Accessories&SubCategory=Violin&Group=146
Good luck!
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by fiddly dee fiddly doo oh how all take it so seriously!
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
well for now listen to your teacher
I use a Kun...my son uses a Wolf..I hate the Wolf..he hates the Kun..
go to a shop
spend a couple hours
try some out
find what is comfortable
buy it
or just go with what your teacher says to do until you can make your own judgement
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
oh, and who cares who looks down on them or not????
Hilary Hahn and Joshua Bell use a rest.
Hilary uses Dominants.
Josh uses Evahs.
They work for themselves.
HEifitz and Oistrakh did not use a restbut they used a pad under their jacket. They both however played on gut and wound gut strings.
Many older "trad" players used steel strings (or barbed wire, whichever they could find or afford)
Why do you care what a "purist" thinks..are you a "purist"?
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
sorry for the rant
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Ditto what Sunnybear says.
I use a shoulder rest because I have a long neck, so for those rare times I actually need to hold the fiddle with my jaw (shifting positions), a shoulder rest is the only way to fill the ample space between my jaw and collarbone.
But a shoulder rest does two other things--it provides some traction for the fiddle against your shirt, and it shifts the balance of the fiddle toward the tailpiece end, both of which make it easier (for me at least) to keep the fiddle loosely perched on my collarbone.
Not everyone needs or likes a shoulder rest (or chin rest). Try different types out and see if they help, and, if so, which one feels best.
FWIW, I use a Kuhn Bravo--maple body. I just like the heft and look of the wood. I've tried Wolf, Bon Musica, Comfort, Resonans, Mach One, and Play on Air. Kuhn works best for me. YMMV.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
it is an interesting thing how people think purists are not to be look at for advice.... makes you wonder! just as you are entitled to dabble and make judgements about music, purists also have that entitlement and one can always learn from them aswell! Oh by the way steel strings are just as good as other strings....just depends on the sound you are after!
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by fiddly dee fiddly doo oh how all take it so seriously!
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Kuhn is the best I've come across, and they're fairly cheap too. I like the plain plastic adjustable fold-able ones better than the fancy wood ones myself, but people differ on opinion. It's lasted me since I got my first violin, though I'll have to replace the rubber tubing on the foot sometime soon, so the metal doesn't scratch...
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Bush Q'oran
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I have used them on and of over the years, I can see why people use them and sometimes I use one when tired, for most of the time the rest sits in the case ....unused. Get your teacher to loan you a few to try before you buy.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Joze
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
My Luthier fitted me with a Wolf, only because he couldn't find another that would be shallow enough to suit my need. I find it very comfortable and would miss it immense.ly if I didn't have it. However, to each his own.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by billcampbell
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Just got one for the first time in my life and I got the Kun Collapsable. I absolutely love it...though as I've said I've never used one before.
When I was a kid I had a litte shoulder pad but stopped using it a long time ago. Recently I haven't been able to relax my shoulder and it was bothering my playing. I was starting to get some pain in my shoulder and left arm, to be honest. It's gone now. I feel like a new fiddler. Get one and be happy. Apparently I'm so old that I need one AND I don't care what anyone thinks.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I'm in the Wolf camp because I have a long neck, I prefer playing with a shoulder rest (not to mention the fact that my teacher insists on it). I've also tried the Kun (which I liked, and which was the sturdiest, but not quite tall enough), and the Resonans. It really is a matter of personal preferance. I've noticed the Wolf has a tendency to pop off, the Kun didn't. Good advice to try several if you can.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by aikifiddler
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
i found that the wolf poped off as well, so i took the feet off the kun sholder rest and screwed them into the wolf threaded barrel...which has worked brilliantly!
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by fiddly dee fiddly doo oh how all take it so seriously!
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Look out for the Bonmusica ones too - they're totally adjustable as they are bendy and you can fit them exactly to the right shape. They look a bit like a Simpsons-esque "British dentistry" sort of contraption, but once it's fitted to the fiddle it's pretty discreet. They're worth a try.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Useful discussion here
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1563
including some good arguments against.
What style of traditional music does Joshua Bell play then?
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
it is an interesting thing how people think that the purist way is the only way and it is the only way because it is the purist way
perhaps the "purist" got the way they did because they were not armed with better information that really could have helped them, due to either geographical situation or economic situation...
Joshua Bell plays the most pure type of traditional music. Even though I am not fond of his non traditional and non purist deep knee bends and body contortions.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Oh right, I googled him, German traditional music.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I've tried practically every shoulder rest on the market and have been dissapointed in all of them but last year I bought a Comford Violin Shoulder Cradle and all I can say is -- finally, something that works. They're not adjustable but they do come in three sizes. I'm not sure if it's because the Comford is so comfortable or if it's a result of the design but it does seem to improve the sound of my fiddle.
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by jackstraw
Wolf in sheep's clothing
For those who think that £20+ is a lot for a shoulder rest, I recently bought one on e-bay called a FOM, which is essentially a Wolf Secondo clone at less than half the price. On the plus side, it looks and feels pretty much the same, but with a quick release catch for adjustment of the width- easier to use than the screws.
)
On the minus side, although you can adjust the height, there is no adjuster to angle the pad in relation to the plane of your shoulder. However, this can easily be remedied by a little careful bending of the metal!
Worth a punt at the price- BIN £10.95 inc.p&p.
(And, no, I am not on commission
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I bought one on eBay just recently for under a tenner including postage and this is it: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290173518686
It is roughly the same size and profile as a Kun bravo (which I also have but I wanted a spare). It's much lighter and not as strongly made, but it does the job. The Kun Bravo is very well made (brass and wood) and should last a lifetime but it costs a small fortune. Try out other peoples though, until you find a pattern you like - happy searching and good luck!
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
righto chadmills..hehe German traditional is spot on..I never said he played itm...
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
as to the Wolfs I am always afraid that the big wire will somehow scrape the back of my violin...I like the Kun regular better than the collapsible...the collapsible seems to have a thinner pad...I like the Playonair, but can never get the darned thing to stay put...if you don't want a rest but want the fiddle to not slip from your shoulder, try a piece of folded up chamois
# Posted on November 10th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I use a collapsible Kun shoulder rest since it fits into my case easier. I used to use a Viva one which is alright too I guess just a bit weaker I think? The only problem I have with my Kun one is that it feels too low no matter how high I put it but apart from that its alright
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by creathana
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I'm also a fan of the Kun. I have the Hun Original. This is the place I got mine, and they have some of the best prices I've seen so far. http://www.southweststrings.com/
Good luck!
Sara
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I much prefer my Wolf one to the Kun I used to have. I feel much more relaxed when using it. The only problem with it is that the rubber bits where it attaches to the fiddle wear out quite quickly, but this isn't a big problem.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by martin clarke
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
On mnay makes, those "rubber bits" on the feet that hug the fiddle are just pieces of surgical tubing. You can find that fairly cheap at most pharmacies. And it's easy to cut and fit the bits to recover the feet.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Tombo, you're brilliant! Kun feet on a Wolf Shoulder rest work great Grips like a charm, plenty of height and comfort, played for over an hour this morning and it didn't pop off once. Thanks for the idea.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by aikifiddler
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
c. puddy tat, i used black electrical tape to recover an exposed black shoulder rest foot. Works well, stays put, nobody any the wiser but me.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
No worries aikifiddler!!! glad that it worked for you too
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by fiddly dee fiddly doo oh how all take it so seriously!
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Clear Drops, watch that the electrical tape doesn't mess up the finish on your fiddle as the tape degrades. Electrical tape has a tendency to go brittle after a while, and then disintegrate. I suspect the adhesive in the tape wouldn't be too healthy for the varnish....
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I'll keep an eye on it cpt, every time I pick up a fiddle, but no such problems so far, maybe about six months on. Originally an immediate, you know, search around the house fer what's available kind of fix it thingy that's lasted beyond expectations.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Maybe you've got better electrical tape down under than we do in my hemisphere.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
(-: - that's a down under upside down smiley in case it doesn't work
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
... the smiley, that is ... and it didn't. Cheers
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
the rubber wearing out on the Kun is a problem...replace it often before it scratches the ribs of your fiddle...
I got a piece 1" tubing at a hardware store for .30 and carry it in my case
On a side note, we are now seeing wear patters form shoulder rests on some fiddles where you never used to see that.
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Cheshire PT, I want one of the wooden Kuns..I believe they are made from Maple..those are very sweet!
# Posted on November 11th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Don’t get forced into using a shoulder-rest! I do not use a shoulder-rest and have never had any problems. I do have a good comfortable chin-rest and I hold the fiddle in a fairly conventional manner between the jaw and collarbone.
There is no consensus on the use of shoulder rests. I know that many fiddle teachers (in Ireland at least) insist that everyone should use a shoulder rest, but it’s far from obvious that it’s always a good idea. They say that you’ll get terrible neck-pain without one. And they claim that shoulder-rest use is almost universal among Classical performer. (These things are untrue.) While many contemporary fiddlers do use a shoulder-rest, many do not. Alasdair Fraser, Aly Bain, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, (to name a very few), as well as most older players, play without shoulder-rests. And of course the great classical violinist Yehudi Menuhin and the magnificent jazz violinist Stéphane Grappelli, never used shoulder-rests.
The shoulder impedes the movement of the left hand, especially on the lower strings. As you play the D and G strings your shoulder naturally raises, and the shoulder-rest has the effect of pushing the shoulder down, thus inhibiting movement. Often violinists feel that the instrument should not move at all during playing, and without a shoulder-rest the violin can feel a little unstable. Playing without a shoulder-rest will give greater freedom to the left hand, whereas playing with one will make the instrument feel more stable in the hand but will limit movement. Many American music conservatories have returned to teaching violin without the shoulder-rest.
There is a good deal of debate within the Classical scene on how useful shoulder-rests are. The best thing I find for players with a longish neck is to place a small pad between the collarbone and the violin (not on the shoulder!) This allows the player to have free movement of the left hand while holding the violin comfortably. My advice is to get a good (not too small) comfortable chin-rest, with a reasonable dip to it, that will give the instrument good purchase on the jaw.
Here’s Prof. Monte Belknap’s response to the question “How important is it that a student use a shoulder rest?”
”I believe the disadvantages of using a shoulder rest out-weigh the advantages. The purpose of a shoulder rest is to aid one in holding up the violin. The problem is that we shouldn't be holding the violin up with the shoulder at all. We should hold up the violin by pushing the violin down with our chin, always keeping our back bone straight and then holding up the end of the violin with the left hand. This is the way the violin was held for centuries before the invention of the shoulder rest (in the 1920's-30's I believe). If you took a poll of all of the greatest violinists of all time you would only find a hand full of them that ever used a shoulder rest, even today. The secret is not raising the shoulder. Don't even touch the violin with the shoulder and see how much more easier it becomes to shift and how much faster the fingers can move. It is not easy to learn how to do this. It took me years to learn...I'm still learning!”
On playing without a shoulder-rest:
http://www.theviolinsite.com/shoulder_rest.html
http://www.theviolinsite.com/holding_violin.html
Lots of people of course find using a shoulder-rest to be useful. And it can seem like instant good posture for some (especially if they’re used to playing in cramped pub conditions). (Though many session players who use shoulder-rests still have horrible posture!) My point is that there is no consensus, and that there can be serious disadvantages to using a shoulder-rest. So don’t feel obliged to use one just because your teacher insists. First try a good chin-rest, and learn to have a relaxed posture.
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by nedscot
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I have a somewhat small chin, a slightly long neck and kinda low shoulders. Added together, this means I can’t seem to get by without a shoulder rest. Periodically I try, mainly because the estimable Mr. Lazyhound and others here highly recommend it, and I have made some progress in overcoming the feeling of losing control. But I don’t see how I would ever play without my chin on the fiddle, and I simply cannot do that without a shoulder rest. Or a very tall chin rest, for which I have been searching and which I just might carve for myself.
The tall chin rest has considerable appeal because it would let me lower my bowing arm a bit and reduce that tension.
“The problem is that we shouldn't be holding the violin up with the shoulder at all. We should hold up the violin by pushing the violin down with our chin,...”
So the idea is to hold it between the chin and the collarbone? I imagine that some collarbones will fit , and support, a fiddle better than others. When I try to rest the fiddle on my collarbone, I feel some pressure on the carotid artery. Probably not a good thing.
Every theoretical argument about it eventually comes up against anatomy. Some people are probably better off without a shoulder rest and some are probably better off with it. And the fact that so many people played without shoulder rests before they were invented is not relevant, because we have no way of knowing how many potential players were turned away, gave up or never reached their potential because of not having a shoulder rest.
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Yehudi Menuhin helped to develop the "Menuhin" shoulder rest. It did not stand the test of time, but it was similar to a Bon Musica. He also used a pad under the jacket before his rest expirement, so he is not a good protagonist for the no-redt mvement.
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
"rest"not "redt"
# Posted on November 12th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
often thought the problem is not with or without a rest..if you can do without, fine then do so, but DO NOT raise the left shoulder to compensate for no rest. Again I will state, do not raise the left shoulder scrunching it up towards your ear. It is true about the theory of what Neddiescot is saying. But it also implies that you will have great form and not hunch or scrunch. Yuo will have a lot freer movement of the arm, especially up in 5th position, but we rarely are going there.
# Posted on November 13th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
>>“The problem is that we shouldn't be holding the violin up with the shoulder at all. We should hold up the violin by pushing the violin down with our chin,...”<<
Shock horror.! this is simply incorrect. there should be no downward pressure which will tense all sorts of muscles we want relaxed! The correct idea is to place the fiddle in position and gently pull the head/chin back so the lip of the chin rest fits under the chin and is held there with no downwards pressure.
# Posted on November 13th 2007 by the wicked hacker
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
I will quote James Winram here on the particular issue of this discussion;
>>It is nonsense to lay down any hard and fast rule. A simple experiment will prove whether a pad and chin rest are necessary or not: stand up perfectly erect and place the violin under the jaw 'without lowering the head'. If there is a space between the collar bone and the back of the violin it must be filled up with a pad.A player with a short neck will probably not need either a chin rest or a pad, whereas a player with a very long neck will require both.<<
# Posted on November 13th 2007 by the wicked hacker
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Jig wrote:
">>“The problem is that we shouldn't be holding the violin up with the shoulder at all. We should hold up the violin by pushing the violin down with our chin,...”<<
Shock horror.! this is simply incorrect."
(But this is not incorrect!)
"...the lip of the chin rest fits under the chin and is held there with no downwards pressure."
If the instrument is held in place there is obviously some pressure exerted to hold it in place. It's not an enormous amount of pressure, of course. According to Yehudi Menuhin, when we take the left hand away the violin should droop by nearly 45 degrees.
And if there's any pressure or pain in the collar-bone, a small pad should sort that out. In general I would recommend a small pad for someone who felt they needed the fiddle to be elevated, or at worst a shoulder-rest that doesn't raise the instrument to much. There are a lot of fiddlers with giant scaffolding under the fiddle and their postures are still off.
# Posted on November 13th 2007 by nedscot
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
Its not meant to be downwards pressure. Try it, you will find the neck muscles at the back much more relaxed which translates top a more open 'feeling'. There need be no downwards pressure at all. Simply draw the head back. I imagine the older method without a chin rest would need the downwards grip. not sure, although i have played without one I haven't done it much.
Just this discussion reminded me to check my 'grip' as soon as i did i realized i was gripping down. I immediately corrected my self. With regular lessons the teacher can correct you, bad habits can develop in a week of serious practice. lessons twice a week are recommended as a minimum! how many of us get that, certainly not me!
If the chin rest fits you well, trial and error, then just keeping your head in position with a feeling of drawing the head back will keep the fiddle in place.
There is no doubt that the more relaxed and alert we are the smoother and greater control we will be able to exercise over our bodies and our instrument.
It is said by some that the hand shouldnt support the fiddle at all yet its possible to see players like Arthur Grumiaux litterally not touching the fiddle with their chin at points they are so relaxed. mind you he has plenty of 'padding'!
As you say 'According to Yehudi Menuhin, when we take the left hand away the violin should droop by nearly 45 degrees.''
It is simply a question of balance and proportion.
# Posted on November 13th 2007 by the wicked hacker
Re: Fiddle Players Help!! (Shoulder Rest)
For sure, the pressure comes from tucking in the chin. No argument there! Of course, most of the older fiddlers in my family didn't really use the chin rest at all, the fiddle was held to the shoulder.
Jig said: "I imagine the older method without a chin rest would need the downwards grip."
I reckon not. In authentic Baroque playing the chin never holds the violin at all, the hand and arm carry all the weight, the chin is left out of the equation.
# Posted on November 28th 2007 by nedscot