Rage, rage, against the dieing of common sense and courtesy...
Why the hell can't those damned flute players hear how f'n out of tune they are and how irritating that is for others. Why do they persist and continue to screw up the music with what has got to be tantamount to disrespect ~ of the music ~ of the others present...
STOP! ~ take a little time to tune, and after your instrument has a bit of damp and warmth in it and has gone out of tune ~ retune it to the rest of us... If there are free reed players present, well, they are sort of stuck, so strings, tune to those who haven't the choice, and then winds, get the best tuning you can to blend in with the rest present, rather than to grate and irritate and have us talking about you behind your back...
This is a slight segway from another discussion ~ one of those BIG ISSUES many of us face and suffer, and occassionally is a sin we've been guilty of ourselves...
I'd love to hear the tales, but I'd love even more to hear how folks deal with this one, preferably more constructive options than destructive, but I enjoy all kinds of literature, but I'm not fond of romance, so keep the cheesy stuff to a minimum... You know, I found true love through tuning...
EXCUSE ME!!!
What do you mean? A sweeping generalisation that all flute players are constantly out of tune? Are you serious Ceolachan?
Of course as a flute player there is no way that I could possibly agree with you on this, you nut!
(will that do Ceolachan? Its just that you said you wanted to lose that nice image that you have on the session, heheheheheehe.........)
A perennial problem, but not one necessarily of the flute player's making. For some reason, flutes are more audible above the other players than they seem to be to the people playing .... Strange but I think true(!)
However, as a flute player who tends to try to tune to fixed reed players, I still feel an uncontrollable urge to twiddle with my tuning when the overall sound is discordant - in the vain hope that it will magically bridge the tonal gap between the out of tune (Or poorly intoned) fiddles, out-of-tune-in-one-octave whistles, guitars playing an approximation of an acceptable chord sequence etc etc etc.... So 'retune to the rest of us' is not really an option - which 'rest of us' do you want us poor maligned flute players to tune to?
Yours in a state of perpetual (probably guilty) outrage,
etc. etc.
I don't have much experience with flute players, but with fiddle players, I ask if I can try their fiddle, I play a tune on it AND tune it, then give it back. Lots of times, the person knows they're out of tune, they just have trouble getting right in tune when lots of people are playing around them. I guess flute players probably don't try each other's instruments much? ewwww
Some people are aware there is a problem. My SO always checks her tuning against my 'zouk when we start up, and again as the evening progresses. I keep my ears open, and check with the electronic if I hear any obvious discords from other musicians.
I'm getting the feeling this is somehow a personal issue.
Is there not some particular flute you're railing against ?
And why doesn't this apply to whistles also ?
Sometimes I reckon it's the odd fiddler who strays from the true concert.......
For many newer flute players the issue is an undeveloped embouchure. It is difficult for me (and I suspect others) to hold the same shape for 3-4 hours. When one's lips change due to fatigue, tone and tuning change too. Right now it's the single biggest challenge in my playing. This isn;t an excuse so much as an explanation.
Guernsey Pete ~ this was really a general issue about tuning, not just flutes, or just winds, though 'Dow' was on about flutes recently, like last night, 3:30 a.m. in his morning and me trying to make dinner...
I've a friend that never tunes his fiddle. I have to show up with a load of variously tuned instruments and hope I can find something that fits in with whatever mood his fiddle is in at the time. Sometimes, just sometimes, there's some weirdness on it I can't match and at times like that I just keep quiet and let him get on with it, with me sitting there smiling numbly and nodding occassionally... Or, he really loses out and I pull out the bones...
I'd guess you're talking about the wooden flute, but the metal flute is (when fully warmed up) tuned to concert pitch when the slide is fully in. So get tuning yourselves to them if there's no reed players about, cos if your session's flat of concert pitch then the flute player is gonna be sharp (and possibly by quite a bit)!!
With the exception of reed instruments, people should tune to the session, be that at A=440 or not, frequently sessions are a bit sharp or flat, but it's up to every person to keep themselves in tune to the session and put away the electronics if you can (or get a reference pitch off someone else in the session and tune to that). I've seen someone leaning over and saying "I think you're in tune, but I think the rest of us are a bit flat/sharp" work, most people don't take it personally, tuning by ear is a skill that needs to be aquired and it takes time.
With flutes there are other thing that the less experienced take for granted, that can make the instrument out of tune with itself, let alone everyone else ~
At the butt end there's the position of the cork, or plug, or stopper...in relation to the embochure hole...
There's keys, if you've got them, and the tendency for those little pads of pig skin to rot, to leak. So if the pads or shot or the springs are and the keys leak, that can cause problems in tone, and duck tape wrapped around it doesn't cure the problem.
Bad repair work, or dodgy repair work, like that duck tape...
Hearing the 'out-of-tune' bit but miss judging it, in other words, it's sharp, they know something is wrong, but in their effort to correct it they do the opposite and make it sharper / or flatter...
A bad sign, if there's a tuning slide, is if that slide is extended more than say a half an inch ~ a sign that something is likely not to be right, either with the instrument or the player's hearing... You can only tune one note true that way anyway. The further out you are from the instruments own tuning the worse agreement is between the notes of the flute. For example, you tune to an A on an instrument that is sharp. The A on the flute will be in tune, but the further away from that A you get, the more out of tune the flute is. The only way you could remedy that would be to have a tuning slide between every note...not practical...
And not forgetting, embochure has already been mentioned above ~ bad instruments, not just badly maintained, but just badly made... They do exist, like the slew of Afghanistani flutes that were being imported and sold by a certain Dublin music shop... If none of you are familar with this, the uilleann pipes they also imported smelled like camel shight... So, there are some awful instruments out there, and that's a shame, because it is hard to progress or be inspired to do so or to keep at it if your main axe is cack...
But, what I want to know is, in sessions, aside from what you've experienced, how do you deal with a badly out of tune musician? Anna gave a good one, at least for inexperienced fiddlers who welcome some attention... Any other ideas there? But please, keep put the stories of horror and science fiction in too...the alien kazoo...
The flautist in my band is well aware of intonation problems, and I never notice anything wrong in her playing.
At a recent session someone was talking about adjusting cork positions, and was about to shove a knitting-needle down my SO's prize flute ( the blunt end, ok ? ), when I asked if it had anything wrong with it needing adjustment. If you have a problem, then is the time to carefully adjust till it is improved. If not, leave well alone.
If you tune to a good A, and the rest of the instrument is out, then obviously there's a problem.
How do you deal with a badly out-of-tune musician Who Won't Take Counsel ? This is the problem. A previous discussion, re a box-player, suggested all shutting-up when they played, till they got the hint.
Science fiction, eh ? There was the theremin in F sharp....
Flute is in concert when fully in? crap!! if that was the case, everyone would just shove it in and we would all be okay. I played for years with a fantasic flute player and she checked her tuning all the time because it changed as the flute warmed up with playing. Flute /whistle players who tune up at the start and never bother to check afterwards are a royal pain in the arse. Also, the sound penetrates so much that i've often have to re-tune constantly to keep up. At least with a string instrument, one string will go quicker than others, so there is some check. If the fiddle player is out of tune all the time, then they need to do some practice. But please, either check the tuning of the flute or whistle regulary, or invent a mute so you dont infict it on the rest of us.
Lucky you, a good and patient flute player, someone that bear up and puts up with your shenanigans Pedro... I have had a few dire incidents to do with foul corks and things growing in that butt end of a flute, someone else's instrument. A simple clean up and a bit of work never hurts, as long as it is done by someone who's a clue what they're about.
Your right, dealing with how to counsel on the problem. It is in most cases the person rather than the instrument.
I'm not sure what to make of an 'accordion' player suggesting we shoot those folks who are out of tune. Maybe just a good pressing will do...
I agree thedon, the whislte is hell out of tune...and probably the most prevelant sinner in this regard, and the most painfully obvious in the second octave...
When a flute player's embouchure is correct their lips are actually very relaxed and the tone and pitch come through effortlessly. Put them in front of other people and they tense up and the intonation warps. Not only that, but the volume drops off. Put them in front of other people that are also playing instruments and they will tense up even more. Then they'll bear down hard thus warping their tone and intonation further and blow even harder to be heard. This downward spiral can suck the intonation out of the whole session. I know because I've been there.
As a fluter develops their embouchure this problem will begin to solve itself bit by bit, but it takes a while before you get enough control to actually make tuning your flute an effective tactic. Until control is established the flute's stability is unpredictable. You can tune it to one note but the others will be off, or become off as you play.
After struggling with this for years I can actually tune the flute and adjust it as necessary with much more success. Now I can even sometimes hold an A or G and adjust the tuning slide with my right hand mid-tune. Being able to hear yourself going sharp and correcting it before others notice is something you will be very happy about... and so will your music pals. Playing a night of tunes without hearing string players constantly fussing with their tuning and glaring at you is a cherished thing.
The other paradox
If you have trouble hearing yourself in a session, going sharp will suddenly make you more audible. The problem is that you're more audible.
I'm fairly certain my Boehm (silver) flute is in concert pitch with the slide fully in when I've warmed it up properly. I checked it on a tuner (cos I wanted to see if I was in tune) and it seems to be, could just be a fluke or badly made flute for all I know though. Irish flute is not, presumably because the design comes from a time when concert was sharper of todays? I did ask an Irish flute player about this (assuming I was playing sharp) and this was what he told me.
I was wrong in my above post anyway, silver flute can't go sharper, not the other way round!
It's weird, but with instrument in hand and playing and concentrating on trying to get it right, I've glowered over my shoulder at anyone playing anything out of tune or out of time....and felt the rage.
Yet minutes later (or earlier), with glass in hand and the instrument put away......have smiled genuinely, tolerantly, patiently and with great affection at all the stray notes, and all the weird variations.
There is something in that paradox thing. Somehow, despite everything a good session is alive. I rapidly lose interest in those that are rehearsals or replays of some unofficial performance group of only really good players only playing things they are all good at already....... and find myself drawn to where both the really good and the really bad, and the really good trying different things, and the really bad but desperately hoping not to be noticed, and the hopeful learner playing just that one note or chord every time the B section comes round again, all gather!. Stray flutes, accordions and all!
It seems to be a problem specifically with simple system flutes, in my experience. Either they are old knackered ones or are new cheaper ones, neither of which are balanced (tuningwise) around the A key. I have two old simple system flutes neither of which I am happy with their tuning, but I also have two Boehm system ones - one a standard metal Yamaha, which is fine but does sound a bit metallic, and its action is a bit slow in response; but I also have a GR Ueller blackwood Boehm flute which is very well balanced, tuning wise and the keys are sufficiently responsive for Irish music. To be honest, that is the best flute I have ever played.
Jack and others mentioned the player might get tensed up etc, but I think the main contribution to this very real problem is with the instruments themselves.
No rehearsal intended, as I like a good mix too, but it's a lot less of a struggle if we are all reasonably in tune with each other. It is easier to appreciated what others are doing, whatever their level, and it is easier for the beginner follow and develop their 'EAR' and their technique if what's happening around them is at least mildly inspirational and not a cat fight with squelches and squeaks and whincingly painful dischord... But, that's the sort of keys I'm seeking, and a certain other friend, the magic to do this with diplomacy. The idea of the title for this thread is to not have to get so fed up on a day you've lost sleep that you shout out "TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! In my heart I'd rather the tune than worry about the tuning, but I know from experience that being in tune does make for a much nicer harmony, and I don't mean musicly...
It is easier to join and be part of something if you're in tune with it...
"Jack and others mentioned the player might get tensed up etc, but I think the main contribution to this very real problem is with the instruments themselves."
Sure, but you never know for certain until your embouchure is strong and reliable enough to test it.
Well the most annoying musician I ever met was a flute player who always tuned his flute sharp at least a quarter tone so he could be heard above everyone else. It didn't help that he was murdering tunes and speeding up incessantly, despite me having to tell him in no uncertain terms to cut it out.
Once I sneakily pulled the flute out to flatten it a bit. 5 mins after he got back from the bogs and started playing he sharpened it again.
When he took up the fiddle and was back to being a beginner, all of a sudden he acquired the ability to tune!
Aint that the truth Phantom!!
Anyway as someone already pointed out, I know plenty of other players (not flautists) that dont know how to tune, or believe that when they tune up at the start of the night they dont have to bother to retune later on.
Actually I take that back. The really actually truly honest to goodness most annoying player was a fellow piano box player who played too loud in a Jimmy Shand style and started all the sets before people had time to take a breather or start a tune themselves. I suppose he made me feel smug tho'.
Ceol - I understand and sympathize with what you're saying, but you have to relax your expectations in a session if you like the company of lovely young flute players. (I realize I sound like a dirty old dog here, but I'm just trying to make a point… ok?) *ahem* Anyway... because of the problems I mentioned in this thread related to flute tuning; it takes years to get a good grip on it sometimes. You can be encouraging, and offer advice if asked, but you have to relax your standards a bit for world peace.
I really like it when young lovely flute players and fiddlers show up because then it doesn't appear to be a session for gay ugly guys.
the simple system flute is no different from any instrument made from material that is affected by heat and humidity. It will change intonation and needs to be regularly adjusted.
You can, however, identify the correct position for the stopper to ensure you are very close to being in tune with yourself and concert pitch when you have blown the instrument into tune.
Regualar checks should be made against a suitable reference note from tuner/otherinstruments/tuning fork etc.
No real excuse for being out of tune all the time!
You do need to remember that you cannot used a tuner designed for stringed instruments in order to get the exact or "right" tuning as the harmonic overtones etc will be different but they are a good starting point. The intellitouch is very useful in that respect.
I don't know how people can play on when they're clearly out of tune with the other players.
I play a rather good dry-tuned box, which is accurately tuned to concert pitch (A=440). I know because I check it regularly. But I'm often asked by players of other instruments such as flutes and pipes whether I'm in tune with them. It's only the value of my instrument that stops me throwing it at them.
It really ain't that easy. I was just playing and took out a tuner, and where I had my slide (well actually a tennon this was on my all wood Flute) last week was super sharp (around 25 cents). it is player, instrument, and climate you can't blame it on one. Another thing is if the Flute moves on the players face, oh sh*te there goes their tuning. Sometimes I wish I played box so I could push a button and it would be intune no mater what. One thing that is bad is when I start a set and go out of tune, this is a big problem when it is only me and a backer playing. Plus, because of where the Flute is located it is hard to hear the other players to know if one is out of tune. My suggestion is when practicing play to a tuner or a drone to be able to play correctly.
Yes, the banjo, I've suffered that too...and even worse when a string strum is out of tune with itself as well... It's horrible. I should mention the other hell ~ a piano that is out of tune, and we've been subjected to that in several situations, the worse being one of those with a wood soundboar, a warped wood soundboard and wonky pads... OOOOOOO!!! I'm getting a headache just remembering that person banging away and smiling...almost as bad as a hammered dulcimer... (take it easy Ptarm, I'm joking ~ I think... )
You should know me at least some by now 'button'. The last thing I would do is give out shight to a beginner, whatever their age. As mentioned above, I saw that someone had raised that issue of the embochure and you and blas have made good contributions there, with humour.
I don't find that particular brand of blowing out of tune or the waver to be nearly as bad on my ears as an instrument that is perpetually out of tune, whatever the instrument. It may be a built in mechanism to forgive those early signs of a developing wind player. I also don't find those early players to be generally forthright or obnoxious about it, in the sense of feeling they need to amplify their out of tuneness. Mostly I find that they 'listen' and have a slight embarrassment about it, if anything, something that can be charming.
It is the old farts who think they can and can't, or just don't give a damn and play out of tune despite the annoyances it causes. My recent experiences there have acutally been fiddlers and pipers... This can be so bad, I mean, it can and often does annoy those beginners as much as the die hards...I'm glad to say... Beginners in general have an appreciation for and a want to play together with others, which includes being in tune. That it might take time for the subtleties of embochure to develop and for them to gain control ~ for my own sake, and for those who have put up with me, I can only be patient and give help when and where wanted, if it is in my power of knowledge and experience... However, it seems a good thing to at least address the subject of 'tuning' at least a couple of times in an evening ~ sometime at the start, and then at least again somewhere in the middle, just for a bit of a 'reminder', a bit of 'respect' for the music and those present? ~ not to be an asshole about it or inflexible as far as an 'accepted standard'...but something to aspire to...and appreciate...
The thing with the fiddle is, if the fiddler can't hear when the fiddle's out of tune, then, logically, they can't hear when their intonation's out either. So it doesn't make any difference whether or not the fiddle's in tune - except for the open strings.
As a mandolin player, I can never tell whether I'm in tune because I can't hear myself - neither can anyone else, so it doesn't matter. I only find out when it's my turn to start a tune - then I spend 10 minutes tweaking the tuners whilst everyone waits expectantly.
As a participant on both sides of the fiddle/accompanist equation, I can see Spoon's point. My problem as a fiddler is that I'm a habitual pitch-matcher. That means if my accompanist is in tune, so am I, but it also means if my accompanist is out of tune, so am I.
So as an accompanist, I try to be sure I'm in tune, especially if there's a fiddler next to me pitch-matching my notes.
Fiddle /vs Air Conditioner
Flute /vs Humidity
Box /vs Everyone else
Guitar /vs the door opening and closing.
Whistle /vs the guy who tried to set his pint on it.
Mando /vs The order of chiken fingers that never showed! Thats all right we couldn't hear him anyway..
Its a good time aye ? Beats playing Nintedo..or gardining..
Yup! ~ and about the mandolin, hell, everybody loves the mandolin, at least those I know, and they just seem to be owned and strumed by the nicest folks. So, a few minutes to tune ~ no sweat, the pints are needing attention anyway and blas has promised to give me that one part of that damned reel I just don't seem to be able to get my head around...
So far, way up there at the top, anna has the most memorable response, at least for me, and flutes aren't all that bad, but some folks really don't want others blowing on their instrument, which you just have to respect. Anna's way is the one I have seen work most, but that has been on the whole with string instruments... I have done something similar with other instruments, showing respect for the instrument and the player, and trying not to put them on edge or make them uncomfortable or to feel unwelcomed...
But mandolins, who'd have a bad word to say about a mandolin or a mandolinist... As far as I recollect I've only known one egomaniacal mandolin player in my life ~ and I can't say that for any other instrument...
As a flute player for more than 20 years, I can attest to the most probable cause of the problem. Flutes are very variable pitched instruments, but, unlike the fiddle, they can have the illusion of being 'fixed pitch' instruments due to the fact that there are precise fingerings. An inexperienced player, or someone who doesn't have a very discerning ear for pitch will have a lot of difficulty being anywhere close to consistent on pitch. Playing a flute is a lot like singing vocally in that respect.
Here is an idea for beginning Flute players, play to a drone and develop an ear. Most tuners will play a pitch and I find that if I am playing alone at home it helps me stay in tune and will help my playing when I go out to sessions. Yes, it brngs up just vs. equal temperment, but if I learn to listen to others I can play to a Box player playing with equal temperment and a Piper playing with Just temperment, jsut not at the same time.
> Rage, rage, against the dieing of common sense and courtesy...
Hey man, what are you on? What can you possibly be complaining about? Its all about the ever strong and faithful growth of the tradition man. Don't you know? ITM as strong as ever... ...hey they probably only play like they used to in the past, geez, they probably never really knew what a Bb was anyway man. Lump it and love it man, its just contemporary ITM.
If you really wanna know what I think, tune to the fixed instrument and start a deliberate tuning episode, be forward but diplomatic about the recalcitrant out of tune instrument, and bin those bloody awful electronic tuners which create far more discrepant tuning than harmony, and stop people from using their ear.
One of the things I used to hate about sessions in pubs is that there are usually several players who are out slightly out of tune - and it gets worse as the evening progresses. It becomes impossible to know where teh anchor is if you don't have a fixed reed instrument.
That's one of the reasons that playing in modern, noisy pubs is an articial environment,
Have you ever had it so badly out of tune that you couldn't even get a hand on the tune. I remember dropping out of a set that I didn't think I knew. After they'd finished it I asked one of the out of tune folks next to me "What was that?" It turned out I did know the set, by name at least. They were comfortable old shoes but I couldn't for the life of me recognize them as they were then being played because things were so badly twisted by poor tuning... Mind you, that wasn't the only thing warping that set of old chestnuts...
Electronic tuners are not infalible. We tried one on a double bass and got different readings at the machine-head end and bridge end. You have to use your ears.
I blame musette accordions.
Ceolacahan - my tinnitus is in Bb - realised it one day while listening to a set of tunes on the scottish pipes! Pretty crap for most diddley dee tunes
I understand ~ yesterday I was actually in A=440... But it isn't always there. For me it is one ear, my right ear... Sometimes I can ignore. It seems worse if I'm not in good health...like with alergies or a cold...
I agree in part with the railing against electronic tuners, but if they aren't the focus and instead it is one of the music instruments present, and the tuners are just there as a tool to catch that tuning and carry it forward ~ that's not so bad. A few I've seen can do just that... It is alway better to tune to the person who can't tune, more often tnan not a free reed instrument...and those folks are often pretty careful about having an instrument in tune and in tune with itself, and they are less likely to vary than strings or winds...
An electronic tuner can be a valuable tool, but is not a crutch that can replace careful listening. We have been using them at my local session for the past year to get the stringed instruments tuned, and it is a great way to get everyone lined up quickly, especially since we use the ones that pick up vibrations from the instrument, not the noise of the pub. One hint on those, though--I was playing with a community chorus, and trying to use my tuner while they warmed up, and the chorus was actually vibrating the sound box of the guitar, and throwing off the effort. So if the background noise is random, you can use that electronic tuner, but if there is music in the background, especially sustained tones, your tuner can be suspect.
I think the biggest problem is untrained ears--at the sessions I go to, everyone makes a point of tuning, but some are better than others at hearing and reacting to problems.
Even with an untunable old-time Clarke whistle, I find that I can make a good bit of adjustment with my embrochure--there is a lot of 'wiggle room' that can change the pitch of a whistle and especially a flute, even when you don't move the tuning slide--proper lip placement and breath support is essential.
Another use for a tuner is for oneself, at home or on your own anywhere, to help train your ears and raise your awareness. And as much as some of you may hate it, the same is true with a metronome... A good tuner can aid in gaining a decent ear and tone and holding that. As you said, and true with pretty much any woodwind, there is some range of tone and tuning the embochure can cause to vary, including with fipple winds like whistles or recorders. I consider a decent electronic tuner as one of those modern conveniences, like being able to play recordings at reduced speed, that can help you develop as a musician ~ just so long as you don't become a slave to it. To have a little time set aside to work on gaining a note in tune and holding it relatively steady is good practice, training your ear as well as you control of the tone.
Still, and I am unwaivering on this, a live teacher is the best thing ever...if you can find one that matches your own wishes and temperament.
Also a good way to gain control and understanding and improve your ear is to play that huge store of tunes that are relaxed and give you some long notes to play ~ airs and other slower items in the tradition...including the practice of playing certain old standards, reels, jigs or whatever, as if they were airs...meaning 'slowly'... There may be some hard asses that want to disagree, but if you can't play something decently slow, the likelihood that you can play it fast, or better fast, is pretty damn unlikely. All that happens in speeding up is that it gets so jammed together and moves along so fast that you lose and sense of whether or not you are in tune or in the groove. Speed kills the sense, and it's a coverup for a plethora of musical sins, including bad tuning. To repeat myself, if you can't play it slow, in tune and in time, you sure as hell aren't doing any better when you speed up faster than your conscious mind can analyze... And besides, all your attention is directed toward 'keeping up' and general musicianship goes down the loo...
Just remembered, thanks Drops, a trick used by second rate classical musicians do compensate for bad tuning ~ play everything with vibrato... (YUCK!!!)
I was talking to a friend about intonation and being able to hear yourself playing out of tune as you're playing and it reminded me about something I did at one point to train my ears. Assuming you have a handle on playing with good intonation when you're practicing by yourself, a good exercise I found was to record myself playing along with a solo fiddle recording, or one that had simple accompaniment, and then listening back to it through my stereo system. This allowed me to become my own coach and detect when and where I tended to go off pitch. I would keep redoing the recording of myself with the fiddler until it sounded as though I was there playing with them instead of sounding estranged from them. The process allowed me to get a sense of what it felt like to actually play in tune with other instruments while I was involved with the act of playing. Sort of an ear-training exercise if you like.
Phantom - Playing with recordings sounds like a good idea for many reasons. But not all of the great fiddlers play with perfect intonation. I don't think there is really any established standard for intontation in Irish Traditional Music. Nowadays, there is a strong tendency towards equal temperament, due to instruments such as the piano, free reeds and fretted instruments. But the pipes, for specific technical reasons, are tuned in just intonation. Fiddlers of older generation often seemed to play with their own personal (albeit consistent) intonation - Michael Gorman springs to mind. So it pays for fiddlers to be able to tune their intonation to whomever they are playing with, rather than have their fingers glued to equal temperament.
True, spoon, but it gives you an oportunity to get in the ballpark and sound as though you're playing in the same tonal universe. I think I used a recording by Kevin Burke when I did it, but I would try it with a variety of others as well as different combinations of instruments. The point was to establish a sense of blending with good intonation. The way I would hope to at sessions.
TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Another Damnatation ~ PEOPLE OUT OF TUNE ~
Rage, rage, against the dieing of common sense and courtesy...
Why the hell can't those damned flute players hear how f'n out of tune they are and how irritating that is for others. Why do they persist and continue to screw up the music with what has got to be tantamount to disrespect ~ of the music ~ of the others present...
STOP! ~ take a little time to tune, and after your instrument has a bit of damp and warmth in it and has gone out of tune ~ retune it to the rest of us... If there are free reed players present, well, they are sort of stuck, so strings, tune to those who haven't the choice, and then winds, get the best tuning you can to blend in with the rest present, rather than to grate and irritate and have us talking about you behind your back...
This is a slight segway from another discussion ~ one of those BIG ISSUES many of us face and suffer, and occassionally is a sin we've been guilty of ourselves...
I'd love to hear the tales, but I'd love even more to hear how folks deal with this one, preferably more constructive options than destructive, but I enjoy all kinds of literature, but I'm not fond of romance, so keep the cheesy stuff to a minimum... You know, I found true love through tuning...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Come on, where are ye Dow? I'm trying to shake this idea that I'm a nice guy... It could get me in trouble...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
EXCUSE ME!!!
What do you mean? A sweeping generalisation that all flute players are constantly out of tune? Are you serious Ceolachan?
Of course as a flute player there is no way that I could possibly agree with you on this, you nut!
(will that do Ceolachan? Its just that you said you wanted to lose that nice image that you have on the session, heheheheheehe.........)
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by blas
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
A perennial problem, but not one necessarily of the flute player's making. For some reason, flutes are more audible above the other players than they seem to be to the people playing .... Strange but I think true(!)
However, as a flute player who tends to try to tune to fixed reed players, I still feel an uncontrollable urge to twiddle with my tuning when the overall sound is discordant - in the vain hope that it will magically bridge the tonal gap between the out of tune (Or poorly intoned) fiddles, out-of-tune-in-one-octave whistles, guitars playing an approximation of an acceptable chord sequence etc etc etc.... So 'retune to the rest of us' is not really an option - which 'rest of us' do you want us poor maligned flute players to tune to?
Yours in a state of perpetual (probably guilty) outrage,
etc. etc.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Ottery
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
I don't have much experience with flute players, but with fiddle players, I ask if I can try their fiddle, I play a tune on it AND tune it, then give it back. Lots of times, the person knows they're out of tune, they just have trouble getting right in tune when lots of people are playing around them. I guess flute players probably don't try each other's instruments much? ewwww
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by anastasiadesroches
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Some people are aware there is a problem. My SO always checks her tuning against my 'zouk when we start up, and again as the evening progresses. I keep my ears open, and check with the electronic if I hear any obvious discords from other musicians.
I'm getting the feeling this is somehow a personal issue.
Is there not some particular flute you're railing against ?
And why doesn't this apply to whistles also ?
Sometimes I reckon it's the odd fiddler who strays from the true concert.......
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
For many newer flute players the issue is an undeveloped embouchure. It is difficult for me (and I suspect others) to hold the same shape for 3-4 hours. When one's lips change due to fatigue, tone and tuning change too. Right now it's the single biggest challenge in my playing. This isn;t an excuse so much as an explanation.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by wormdiet
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Damn you guys are great...
I feel fuzzy all over...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
WHOA! ~ Sorry, it's just my flutes needing cleaning...
I'm with you Anna...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Guernsey Pete ~ this was really a general issue about tuning, not just flutes, or just winds, though 'Dow' was on about flutes recently, like last night, 3:30 a.m. in his morning and me trying to make dinner...
I've a friend that never tunes his fiddle. I have to show up with a load of variously tuned instruments and hope I can find something that fits in with whatever mood his fiddle is in at the time. Sometimes, just sometimes, there's some weirdness on it I can't match and at times like that I just keep quiet and let him get on with it, with me sitting there smiling numbly and nodding occassionally... Or, he really loses out and I pull out the bones...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
I'd guess you're talking about the wooden flute, but the metal flute is (when fully warmed up) tuned to concert pitch when the slide is fully in. So get tuning yourselves to them if there's no reed players about, cos if your session's flat of concert pitch then the flute player is gonna be sharp (and possibly by quite a bit)!!
With the exception of reed instruments, people should tune to the session, be that at A=440 or not, frequently sessions are a bit sharp or flat, but it's up to every person to keep themselves in tune to the session and put away the electronics if you can (or get a reference pitch off someone else in the session and tune to that). I've seen someone leaning over and saying "I think you're in tune, but I think the rest of us are a bit flat/sharp" work, most people don't take it personally, tuning by ear is a skill that needs to be aquired and it takes time.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Andy V
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
With flutes there are other thing that the less experienced take for granted, that can make the instrument out of tune with itself, let alone everyone else ~
At the butt end there's the position of the cork, or plug, or stopper...in relation to the embochure hole...
There's keys, if you've got them, and the tendency for those little pads of pig skin to rot, to leak. So if the pads or shot or the springs are and the keys leak, that can cause problems in tone, and duck tape wrapped around it doesn't cure the problem.
Bad repair work, or dodgy repair work, like that duck tape...
Hearing the 'out-of-tune' bit but miss judging it, in other words, it's sharp, they know something is wrong, but in their effort to correct it they do the opposite and make it sharper / or flatter...
A bad sign, if there's a tuning slide, is if that slide is extended more than say a half an inch ~ a sign that something is likely not to be right, either with the instrument or the player's hearing... You can only tune one note true that way anyway. The further out you are from the instruments own tuning the worse agreement is between the notes of the flute. For example, you tune to an A on an instrument that is sharp. The A on the flute will be in tune, but the further away from that A you get, the more out of tune the flute is. The only way you could remedy that would be to have a tuning slide between every note...not practical...
And not forgetting, embochure has already been mentioned above ~ bad instruments, not just badly maintained, but just badly made... They do exist, like the slew of Afghanistani flutes that were being imported and sold by a certain Dublin music shop... If none of you are familar with this, the uilleann pipes they also imported smelled like camel shight... So, there are some awful instruments out there, and that's a shame, because it is hard to progress or be inspired to do so or to keep at it if your main axe is cack...
But, what I want to know is, in sessions, aside from what you've experienced, how do you deal with a badly out of tune musician? Anna gave a good one, at least for inexperienced fiddlers who welcome some attention... Any other ideas there? But please, keep put the stories of horror and science fiction in too...the alien kazoo...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
shoot them dead
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
The flautist in my band is well aware of intonation problems, and I never notice anything wrong in her playing.
At a recent session someone was talking about adjusting cork positions, and was about to shove a knitting-needle down my SO's prize flute ( the blunt end, ok ? ), when I asked if it had anything wrong with it needing adjustment. If you have a problem, then is the time to carefully adjust till it is improved. If not, leave well alone.
If you tune to a good A, and the rest of the instrument is out, then obviously there's a problem.
How do you deal with a badly out-of-tune musician Who Won't Take Counsel ? This is the problem. A previous discussion, re a box-player, suggested all shutting-up when they played, till they got the hint.
Science fiction, eh ? There was the theremin in F sharp....
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Flute is in concert when fully in? crap!! if that was the case, everyone would just shove it in and we would all be okay. I played for years with a fantasic flute player and she checked her tuning all the time because it changed as the flute warmed up with playing. Flute /whistle players who tune up at the start and never bother to check afterwards are a royal pain in the arse. Also, the sound penetrates so much that i've often have to re-tune constantly to keep up. At least with a string instrument, one string will go quicker than others, so there is some check. If the fiddle player is out of tune all the time, then they need to do some practice. But please, either check the tuning of the flute or whistle regulary, or invent a mute so you dont infict it on the rest of us.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by woops
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Lucky you, a good and patient flute player, someone that bear up and puts up with your shenanigans Pedro... I have had a few dire incidents to do with foul corks and things growing in that butt end of a flute, someone else's instrument. A simple clean up and a bit of work never hurts, as long as it is done by someone who's a clue what they're about.
Your right, dealing with how to counsel on the problem. It is in most cases the person rather than the instrument.
I'm not sure what to make of an 'accordion' player suggesting we shoot those folks who are out of tune. Maybe just a good pressing will do...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
I agree thedon, the whislte is hell out of tune...and probably the most prevelant sinner in this regard, and the most painfully obvious in the second octave...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Don't start me on Accordians!!!!
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by woops
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
too right and all
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
The paradox of flute intonation
When a flute player's embouchure is correct their lips are actually very relaxed and the tone and pitch come through effortlessly. Put them in front of other people and they tense up and the intonation warps. Not only that, but the volume drops off. Put them in front of other people that are also playing instruments and they will tense up even more. Then they'll bear down hard thus warping their tone and intonation further and blow even harder to be heard. This downward spiral can suck the intonation out of the whole session. I know because I've been there.
As a fluter develops their embouchure this problem will begin to solve itself bit by bit, but it takes a while before you get enough control to actually make tuning your flute an effective tactic. Until control is established the flute's stability is unpredictable. You can tune it to one note but the others will be off, or become off as you play.
After struggling with this for years I can actually tune the flute and adjust it as necessary with much more success. Now I can even sometimes hold an A or G and adjust the tuning slide with my right hand mid-tune. Being able to hear yourself going sharp and correcting it before others notice is something you will be very happy about... and so will your music pals. Playing a night of tunes without hearing string players constantly fussing with their tuning and glaring at you is a cherished thing.
The other paradox
If you have trouble hearing yourself in a session, going sharp will suddenly make you more audible. The problem is that you're more audible.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
I'm fairly certain my Boehm (silver) flute is in concert pitch with the slide fully in when I've warmed it up properly. I checked it on a tuner (cos I wanted to see if I was in tune) and it seems to be, could just be a fluke or badly made flute for all I know though. Irish flute is not, presumably because the design comes from a time when concert was sharper of todays? I did ask an Irish flute player about this (assuming I was playing sharp) and this was what he told me.
I was wrong in my above post anyway, silver flute can't go sharper, not the other way round!
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Andy V
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Jack - how long did it take you to get consistent, intonation wise? (I am assuming the answer will be in years)
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by wormdiet
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
It's weird, but with instrument in hand and playing and concentrating on trying to get it right, I've glowered over my shoulder at anyone playing anything out of tune or out of time....and felt the rage.
Yet minutes later (or earlier), with glass in hand and the instrument put away......have smiled genuinely, tolerantly, patiently and with great affection at all the stray notes, and all the weird variations.
There is something in that paradox thing. Somehow, despite everything a good session is alive. I rapidly lose interest in those that are rehearsals or replays of some unofficial performance group of only really good players only playing things they are all good at already....... and find myself drawn to where both the really good and the really bad, and the really good trying different things, and the really bad but desperately hoping not to be noticed, and the hopeful learner playing just that one note or chord every time the B section comes round again, all gather!. Stray flutes, accordions and all!
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Worm... yes.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Try decades more like...........
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by blas
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
(nods) uh... yep...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
It seems to be a problem specifically with simple system flutes, in my experience. Either they are old knackered ones or are new cheaper ones, neither of which are balanced (tuningwise) around the A key. I have two old simple system flutes neither of which I am happy with their tuning, but I also have two Boehm system ones - one a standard metal Yamaha, which is fine but does sound a bit metallic, and its action is a bit slow in response; but I also have a GR Ueller blackwood Boehm flute which is very well balanced, tuning wise and the keys are sufficiently responsive for Irish music. To be honest, that is the best flute I have ever played.
Jack and others mentioned the player might get tensed up etc, but I think the main contribution to this very real problem is with the instruments themselves.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Nick Splease
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
No rehearsal intended, as I like a good mix too, but it's a lot less of a struggle if we are all reasonably in tune with each other. It is easier to appreciated what others are doing, whatever their level, and it is easier for the beginner follow and develop their 'EAR' and their technique if what's happening around them is at least mildly inspirational and not a cat fight with squelches and squeaks and whincingly painful dischord... But, that's the sort of keys I'm seeking, and a certain other friend, the magic to do this with diplomacy. The idea of the title for this thread is to not have to get so fed up on a day you've lost sleep that you shout out "TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! In my heart I'd rather the tune than worry about the tuning, but I know from experience that being in tune does make for a much nicer harmony, and I don't mean musicly...
It is easier to join and be part of something if you're in tune with it...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
"Jack and others mentioned the player might get tensed up etc, but I think the main contribution to this very real problem is with the instruments themselves."
Sure, but you never know for certain until your embouchure is strong and reliable enough to test it.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Well the most annoying musician I ever met was a flute player who always tuned his flute sharp at least a quarter tone so he could be heard above everyone else. It didn't help that he was murdering tunes and speeding up incessantly, despite me having to tell him in no uncertain terms to cut it out.
Once I sneakily pulled the flute out to flatten it a bit. 5 mins after he got back from the bogs and started playing he sharpened it again.
When he took up the fiddle and was back to being a beginner, all of a sudden he acquired the ability to tune!
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Aint that the truth Phantom!!
Anyway as someone already pointed out, I know plenty of other players (not flautists) that dont know how to tune, or believe that when they tune up at the start of the night they dont have to bother to retune later on.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by blas
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Actually I take that back. The really actually truly honest to goodness most annoying player was a fellow piano box player who played too loud in a Jimmy Shand style and started all the sets before people had time to take a breather or start a tune themselves. I suppose he made me feel smug tho'.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Ceol - I understand and sympathize with what you're saying, but you have to relax your expectations in a session if you like the company of lovely young flute players. (I realize I sound like a dirty old dog here, but I'm just trying to make a point… ok?) *ahem* Anyway... because of the problems I mentioned in this thread related to flute tuning; it takes years to get a good grip on it sometimes. You can be encouraging, and offer advice if asked, but you have to relax your standards a bit for world peace.
I really like it when young lovely flute players and fiddlers show up because then it doesn't appear to be a session for gay ugly guys.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~p
the simple system flute is no different from any instrument made from material that is affected by heat and humidity. It will change intonation and needs to be regularly adjusted.
You can, however, identify the correct position for the stopper to ensure you are very close to being in tune with yourself and concert pitch when you have blown the instrument into tune.
Regualar checks should be made against a suitable reference note from tuner/otherinstruments/tuning fork etc.
No real excuse for being out of tune all the time!
You do need to remember that you cannot used a tuner designed for stringed instruments in order to get the exact or "right" tuning as the harmonic overtones etc will be different but they are a good starting point. The intellitouch is very useful in that respect.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by breandan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
BTW... banjos are also guilty of the 'tune and forget about it' thing. Not all, of course, but I've seen too many.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
nothing more annoying than a good musician who is 2 arrogant to tune up its worse than a sluggish player being out of tune
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Ripthecalico
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
I don't know how people can play on when they're clearly out of tune with the other players.
I play a rather good dry-tuned box, which is accurately tuned to concert pitch (A=440). I know because I check it regularly. But I'm often asked by players of other instruments such as flutes and pipes whether I'm in tune with them. It's only the value of my instrument that stops me throwing it at them.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
It really ain't that easy. I was just playing and took out a tuner, and where I had my slide (well actually a tennon this was on my all wood Flute) last week was super sharp (around 25 cents). it is player, instrument, and climate you can't blame it on one. Another thing is if the Flute moves on the players face, oh sh*te there goes their tuning. Sometimes I wish I played box so I could push a button and it would be intune no mater what. One thing that is bad is when I start a set and go out of tune, this is a big problem when it is only me and a backer playing. Plus, because of where the Flute is located it is hard to hear the other players to know if one is out of tune. My suggestion is when practicing play to a tuner or a drone to be able to play correctly.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Yes, the banjo, I've suffered that too...and even worse when a string strum is out of tune with itself as well... It's horrible. I should mention the other hell ~ a piano that is out of tune, and we've been subjected to that in several situations, the worse being one of those with a wood soundboar, a warped wood soundboard and wonky pads... OOOOOOO!!! I'm getting a headache just remembering that person banging away and smiling...almost as bad as a hammered dulcimer... (take it easy Ptarm, I'm joking ~ I think...
)
You should know me at least some by now 'button'. The last thing I would do is give out shight to a beginner, whatever their age. As mentioned above, I saw that someone had raised that issue of the embochure and you and blas have made good contributions there, with humour.
I don't find that particular brand of blowing out of tune or the waver to be nearly as bad on my ears as an instrument that is perpetually out of tune, whatever the instrument. It may be a built in mechanism to forgive those early signs of a developing wind player. I also don't find those early players to be generally forthright or obnoxious about it, in the sense of feeling they need to amplify their out of tuneness. Mostly I find that they 'listen' and have a slight embarrassment about it, if anything, something that can be charming.
It is the old farts who think they can and can't, or just don't give a damn and play out of tune despite the annoyances it causes. My recent experiences there have acutally been fiddlers and pipers... This can be so bad, I mean, it can and often does annoy those beginners as much as the die hards...I'm glad to say... Beginners in general have an appreciation for and a want to play together with others, which includes being in tune. That it might take time for the subtleties of embochure to develop and for them to gain control ~ for my own sake, and for those who have put up with me, I can only be patient and give help when and where wanted, if it is in my power of knowledge and experience... However, it seems a good thing to at least address the subject of 'tuning' at least a couple of times in an evening ~ sometime at the start, and then at least again somewhere in the middle, just for a bit of a 'reminder', a bit of 'respect' for the music and those present? ~ not to be an asshole about it or inflexible as far as an 'accepted standard'...but something to aspire to...and appreciate...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
The thing with the fiddle is, if the fiddler can't hear when the fiddle's out of tune, then, logically, they can't hear when their intonation's out either. So it doesn't make any difference whether or not the fiddle's in tune - except for the open strings.
As a mandolin player, I can never tell whether I'm in tune because I can't hear myself - neither can anyone else, so it doesn't matter. I only find out when it's my turn to start a tune - then I spend 10 minutes tweaking the tuners whilst everyone waits expectantly.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
As a participant on both sides of the fiddle/accompanist equation, I can see Spoon's point. My problem as a fiddler is that I'm a habitual pitch-matcher. That means if my accompanist is in tune, so am I, but it also means if my accompanist is out of tune, so am I.
So as an accompanist, I try to be sure I'm in tune, especially if there's a fiddler next to me pitch-matching my notes.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Drop_D_Chalupa
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Fiddle /vs Air Conditioner
Flute /vs Humidity
Box /vs Everyone else
Guitar /vs the door opening and closing.
Whistle /vs the guy who tried to set his pint on it.
Mando /vs The order of chiken fingers that never showed! Thats all right we couldn't hear him anyway..
Its a good time aye ? Beats playing Nintedo..or gardining..
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by lamh trom
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Yup! ~ and about the mandolin, hell, everybody loves the mandolin, at least those I know, and they just seem to be owned and strumed by the nicest folks. So, a few minutes to tune ~ no sweat, the pints are needing attention anyway and blas has promised to give me that one part of that damned reel I just don't seem to be able to get my head around...
So far, way up there at the top, anna has the most memorable response, at least for me, and flutes aren't all that bad, but some folks really don't want others blowing on their instrument, which you just have to respect. Anna's way is the one I have seen work most, but that has been on the whole with string instruments... I have done something similar with other instruments, showing respect for the instrument and the player, and trying not to put them on edge or make them uncomfortable or to feel unwelcomed...
But mandolins, who'd have a bad word to say about a mandolin or a mandolinist... As far as I recollect I've only known one egomaniacal mandolin player in my life ~ and I can't say that for any other instrument...
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
LOL, Lamh!
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Drop_D_Chalupa
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Yep, mandolins are under-rated. I enjoy a good mandolin to play along with any day... as long as they tune it of course.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
As a flute player for more than 20 years, I can attest to the most probable cause of the problem. Flutes are very variable pitched instruments, but, unlike the fiddle, they can have the illusion of being 'fixed pitch' instruments due to the fact that there are precise fingerings. An inexperienced player, or someone who doesn't have a very discerning ear for pitch will have a lot of difficulty being anywhere close to consistent on pitch. Playing a flute is a lot like singing vocally in that respect.
# Posted on June 21st 2006 by jasonlburnfield
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Here is an idea for beginning Flute players, play to a drone and develop an ear. Most tuners will play a pitch and I find that if I am playing alone at home it helps me stay in tune and will help my playing when I go out to sessions. Yes, it brngs up just vs. equal temperment, but if I learn to listen to others I can play to a Box player playing with equal temperment and a Piper playing with Just temperment, jsut not at the same time.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
i hate being out of tune cause my fingers get messed up and at kitchin partys gatars are most of the time out of tune its soooooooo anoying
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by fiddle?hockey?
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
> Rage, rage, against the dieing of common sense and courtesy...
Hey man, what are you on? What can you possibly be complaining about? Its all about the ever strong and faithful growth of the tradition man. Don't you know? ITM as strong as ever... ...hey they probably only play like they used to in the past, geez, they probably never really knew what a Bb was anyway man. Lump it and love it man, its just contemporary ITM.
If you really wanna know what I think, tune to the fixed instrument and start a deliberate tuning episode, be forward but diplomatic about the recalcitrant out of tune instrument, and bin those bloody awful electronic tuners which create far more discrepant tuning than harmony, and stop people from using their ear.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by Jamie
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
How do you know I'm a bloke Jamie?
I agree with the "deliberate tuning ~ be forward but diplomatic ~ "...
With someone mentioning 'drone' above, here's a real twister for you ~ and I'd love to know if there's an answer to this one ~
HELP! ~ CAN TINNITIS BE TUNED?
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
One of the things I used to hate about sessions in pubs is that there are usually several players who are out slightly out of tune - and it gets worse as the evening progresses. It becomes impossible to know where teh anchor is if you don't have a fixed reed instrument.
That's one of the reasons that playing in modern, noisy pubs is an articial environment,
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by Alister
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Have you ever had it so badly out of tune that you couldn't even get a hand on the tune. I remember dropping out of a set that I didn't think I knew. After they'd finished it I asked one of the out of tune folks next to me "What was that?" It turned out I did know the set, by name at least. They were comfortable old shoes but I couldn't for the life of me recognize them as they were then being played because things were so badly twisted by poor tuning... Mind you, that wasn't the only thing warping that set of old chestnuts...
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Electronic tuners are not infalible. We tried one on a double bass and got different readings at the machine-head end and bridge end. You have to use your ears.
I blame musette accordions.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by geoffwright
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Ceolacahan - my tinnitus is in Bb - realised it one day while listening to a set of tunes on the scottish pipes! Pretty crap for most diddley dee tunes
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by breandan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
I understand ~ yesterday I was actually in A=440... But it isn't always there. For me it is one ear, my right ear... Sometimes I can ignore. It seems worse if I'm not in good health...like with alergies or a cold...
I agree in part with the railing against electronic tuners, but if they aren't the focus and instead it is one of the music instruments present, and the tuners are just there as a tool to catch that tuning and carry it forward ~ that's not so bad. A few I've seen can do just that... It is alway better to tune to the person who can't tune, more often tnan not a free reed instrument...and those folks are often pretty careful about having an instrument in tune and in tune with itself, and they are less likely to vary than strings or winds...
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
An electronic tuner can be a valuable tool, but is not a crutch that can replace careful listening. We have been using them at my local session for the past year to get the stringed instruments tuned, and it is a great way to get everyone lined up quickly, especially since we use the ones that pick up vibrations from the instrument, not the noise of the pub. One hint on those, though--I was playing with a community chorus, and trying to use my tuner while they warmed up, and the chorus was actually vibrating the sound box of the guitar, and throwing off the effort. So if the background noise is random, you can use that electronic tuner, but if there is music in the background, especially sustained tones, your tuner can be suspect.
I think the biggest problem is untrained ears--at the sessions I go to, everyone makes a point of tuning, but some are better than others at hearing and reacting to problems.
Even with an untunable old-time Clarke whistle, I find that I can make a good bit of adjustment with my embrochure--there is a lot of 'wiggle room' that can change the pitch of a whistle and especially a flute, even when you don't move the tuning slide--proper lip placement and breath support is essential.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by AlBrown
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Nice points Al...
Another use for a tuner is for oneself, at home or on your own anywhere, to help train your ears and raise your awareness. And as much as some of you may hate it, the same is true with a metronome... A good tuner can aid in gaining a decent ear and tone and holding that. As you said, and true with pretty much any woodwind, there is some range of tone and tuning the embochure can cause to vary, including with fipple winds like whistles or recorders. I consider a decent electronic tuner as one of those modern conveniences, like being able to play recordings at reduced speed, that can help you develop as a musician ~ just so long as you don't become a slave to it. To have a little time set aside to work on gaining a note in tune and holding it relatively steady is good practice, training your ear as well as you control of the tone.
Still, and I am unwaivering on this, a live teacher is the best thing ever...if you can find one that matches your own wishes and temperament.
Also a good way to gain control and understanding and improve your ear is to play that huge store of tunes that are relaxed and give you some long notes to play ~ airs and other slower items in the tradition...including the practice of playing certain old standards, reels, jigs or whatever, as if they were airs...meaning 'slowly'... There may be some hard asses that want to disagree, but if you can't play something decently slow, the likelihood that you can play it fast, or better fast, is pretty damn unlikely. All that happens in speeding up is that it gets so jammed together and moves along so fast that you lose and sense of whether or not you are in tune or in the groove. Speed kills the sense, and it's a coverup for a plethora of musical sins, including bad tuning. To repeat myself, if you can't play it slow, in tune and in time, you sure as hell aren't doing any better when you speed up faster than your conscious mind can analyze... And besides, all your attention is directed toward 'keeping up' and general musicianship goes down the loo...
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Alister mentioned that the tuning usually gets worse as the evening progresses in a pub session.
At a coffeehouse session, there's a different problem. The tunes keep getting faster and faster.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by Drop_D_Chalupa
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Give up the drink Drop-D, change to herbal teas...
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
I can imagine it now, caffeine overdose, not only speed but a certain shaky tremolo sound to everything...
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
Just remembered, thanks Drops, a trick used by second rate classical musicians do compensate for bad tuning ~ play everything with vibrato... (YUCK!!!)
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
I was talking to a friend about intonation and being able to hear yourself playing out of tune as you're playing and it reminded me about something I did at one point to train my ears. Assuming you have a handle on playing with good intonation when you're practicing by yourself, a good exercise I found was to record myself playing along with a solo fiddle recording, or one that had simple accompaniment, and then listening back to it through my stereo system. This allowed me to become my own coach and detect when and where I tended to go off pitch. I would keep redoing the recording of myself with the fiddler until it sounded as though I was there playing with them instead of sounding estranged from them. The process allowed me to get a sense of what it felt like to actually play in tune with other instruments while I was involved with the act of playing. Sort of an ear-training exercise if you like.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
I like...
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
"As far as I recollect I've only known one egomaniacal mandolin player in my life"
Ceolachan - You only *think* you know me.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
'Quirl' ~ is that you? ( LOL!!! )
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Phantom - Playing with recordings sounds like a good idea for many reasons. But not all of the great fiddlers play with perfect intonation. I don't think there is really any established standard for intontation in Irish Traditional Music. Nowadays, there is a strong tendency towards equal temperament, due to instruments such as the piano, free reeds and fretted instruments. But the pipes, for specific technical reasons, are tuned in just intonation. Fiddlers of older generation often seemed to play with their own personal (albeit consistent) intonation - Michael Gorman springs to mind. So it pays for fiddlers to be able to tune their intonation to whomever they are playing with, rather than have their fingers glued to equal temperament.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Quirl? No, that's a different kitchen utensil entirely.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
True, spoon, but it gives you an oportunity to get in the ballpark and sound as though you're playing in the same tonal universe. I think I used a recording by Kevin Burke when I did it, but I would try it with a variety of others as well as different combinations of instruments. The point was to establish a sense of blending with good intonation. The way I would hope to at sessions.
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ??? ~ moving on? ~
Discussion: Flute player's embrochure
# Posted on June 22nd 2006 by swisspiper
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10415
# Posted on June 23rd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: TUNE UP or SHUT UP!!! ~ ???
Definition of a chord = 6 flute players plaing A
# Posted on July 1st 2006 by Alancorsini